Business design thinking is the concept businesses need (but haven’t heard of) Andy Rogers, founder of Rokker, on how “business design” perfects user experience

Rokker Business Design Lenses

You know when a company makes noise about becoming “user-centred”, or “customer-focussed”, or “digital-first…” or any other nice-sounding, double-barrelled aspiration?

Maybe it even builds a team of awesome UX and digital professionals. Management sends out internal newsletters warning everyone about the coming transformation.

We’re gonna do it, we tell ya! We’re gonna start focussing on our users!”

Until the time comes to actually do something user-centred. Then it’s all about business priorities and back-pedalling.

UX is nice but come on… we have shit to sell and time is money, baby! Why don’t we just A/B test?”

“We need to go live in 2 weeks… I don’t think it’s practical to open a can of worms with testing.

“Look, our profits are down. It’s simply not feasible to invest this much in research right now.”

What the company says and what it does aren’t aligned. Its teams aren’t aligned. Its goals aren’t aligned.

Maybe the director spearheading the creation of a UX team believes in the power of user experience… but is everybody else pulling in the same direction?

As noted in my interview with Jonathan Shariat, a UX team can’t perform optimally when it’s isolated from other teams, which are working counter to its goals.

If you know the frustration that builds up from situations like this, Andy Rogers is the man you want to talk to. He founded Rokker based on the concept of business design – the cure for corporate identity crises.

Learn more about Rokker’s approach to business design in my interview with founder Andy Rogers


Timi: Hi there, my name is Timi, and I’m the editor for the blog at WhatUsersDo. Today I’m talking to Andy Rogers who is founder of Rokker Design. So if you’re a UX professional or you’re a head of and you’ve worked in an organization where you’ve created a UX team or a design team and your company has tried to become user or customer focused but it hasn’t quite worked out that way and it’s frustrating, this interview will be perfect for you. So Andy, first of all, I’m gonna ask you to introduce yourself and your design background.

Andy: Yeah, no problem. Hi, thanks for taking some time. So, yeah, Andy Rogers. I’m the founder and managing partner of Rokker. As you know, we have this business design methodology, and this comes from some of my time spent previously running agency businesses. I had my business in my 20s and then went on to run a big digital agency. And also running other platform product businesses over the last five years. And, you know, we were looking for something that was interesting and valuable when we set up the company last year, and this space looked good.

Timi: Excellent, so by my understanding, business design is a fusion of design thinking and management consultancy. Can you define business design for us, and what you mean by design thinking?

Andy: Yeah, absolutely. So the way that we define what we do is business design is the application of design thinking to solve corporate challenges. And it manifests itself in a combination of, you know, design-led strategy, planning and execution. And it’s important to note that it’s not just an exercise in the front end of the business, you know. Business design is something that occurs across a corporation. We can maybe talk a little bit more about that later.

Timi: Okay.

Andy: So in terms of design thinking, you know, the way that we define design thinking is that, you know, it’s inherently agile, it’s human centered, it’s goal orientated, and it’s a methodology takes those core stages of the design process, empathy, definition, ideation, prototyping and testing, as a means to create a, sort of, not prescribed solution to a product or a service or to a corporate challenge.

Timi: Okay, excellent. So it’s not just…You’re taking the way, basically, things are designed and you’re applying it to things that aren’t necessarily just products. And basically you’re using it to improve anything that is meant to service humans.

Andy: Absolutely, because companies have a lot of humans in them and they deal with a lot of humans, whether they’re customers or shareholders or journalists or management or employees. You know, it seemed like a very sensible way for us to view the world.

Timi: Okay. So can I ask, why did you create a framework that uses design practices to improve businesses? Why not just any of the other existing systems?

Andy: Well, that’s an interesting one. I mean, when we were researching our business term before launch, we were looking at other companies within the sector. And, you know, more traditionally that would be management consulting companies. And truthfully, you know, we didn’t feel they were doing a very good job of understanding a human-centered approach to business. We thought they were based on old methodology, and we, you know…whether you buy into the frameworks they’ve got there, whether it’s Nine Boxes or Five Forces or whatever, it might be, you know, in terms of the more traditional management consulting methodology. What it ended up being was usually in such a piece that culminated in a big strategy document that, you know, anecdotally ended up on the desk of the CEO. Everybody else thought it was expensive and a waste of time because they could have just told them that, and it never got implemented, you know. And then as the big waterfall project that they produced was executed, their clients changed and they would have to redo it. And that seemed, to us, to be a bonkers way of approaching corporate strategy on any level. So we said, “Well, you know, what, it’s not sensible to take on Accenture but why not give it a go.” And that’s what we’ve set out to do.

Timi: Okay, so I remember when we were talking, when we first met for the first time, you mentioned something that stuck with me, which was that businesses have internal and external customers. And in my mind, the first thing that came up was I thought of companies that, you know, think, “All right, we wanna become customer centered or user centered,” and they focus on just the people who buy from them. And they don’t necessarily focus on the people who work for them and how to get those people in their entirety, not just creating a team to follow that same ideology. And that is one of the lenses from the Six Lenses framework you use, right? You use a framework called the Six Lenses.

Andy: Yeah, I mean, it doesn’t have an official title right now, but it does use six lenses. And the reason that’s important to us is it gives us a holistic view of a challenge. So instead of, sort of, being siloed into a department, we take a challenge and map it to the six lenses rather than the other way. So just to give you an idea of what those are, the six lenses are customer, communication, market, product, organization, and finance. And I think it’s important to understand we don’t just treat it as internally and externally, per se, in terms of our view of the world. As you said that obvious there are employees, but, as I mentioned before, people like shareholders, journalists, you know? There are all sorts of people that have touchpoints with companies and, you know, having a human centered approach to solving their issues or creating opportunities with those user groups, you know, is really advantageous.

Timi: Okay, so in your view, in order to effect proper and effective organizational change, you need to look through all those six lenses, in essence. Otherwise you’ll be chasing your tail. You’ll be, like, one step forward, two steps back kind of thing.

Andy: Well, actually, it’s really interesting. When you hear about other agencies that do “strategy,” you know, I meet a lot of digital agencies that say, “Oh, yeah, we do strategy,” for example. Well, actually, if you think about those lenses, and, you know, customer, communication, market, product, organization, and finance, really, if you’re a digital agency you’re really only looking at a product, maybe a communication lens, potentially a bit of customer, you know? So you’re not really getting a full-rounded, strategic view of an issue. And actually, I think, you know, one of the reasons that strategic initiatives fail is when they become part of one of those silos with one of those lenses. And it’s a difficult thing for a company to do to just, basically, fire shots in the dark in one of those lenses and hope something sticks. What they need to do is they need to map a challenge, a brief, to all of those lenses and then get everybody on board to understand how that affects their department and what they need within that.

Timi: Okay. And obviously, for people in our audience at WhatUsersDo, the element that probably sticks out the most is that customer/human centered aspect of it. So I just wanted to find out how does business design fit in the humans, the customers, or the online users? Is it, like, research or through other methods?

Andy: Yeah, I mean, when we take on a challenge we do a lot of primary research. We do a lot of desk based research. We do workshopping. And there’s lots of engagement with people and looking at what the businesses are about. I mean, you all know this implicitly, but looking at what the businesses are actually doing rather than what they’re saying they’re doing.

Timi: Yes.

Andy: And, you know, quantitative data gives you that. So what we often say here and I’m a massive believer in is we don’t present opinion as fact. We like to present fact as fact, or at least where we can’t get fact as fact, we like to present an educated opinion based on data. So, you know, this is what we’re doing. We’re trying to get a lot of data about consumers or about staff or about, you know, the people we’re interacting with.

Timi: Is it fair to say you try to get a holistic kind of view of data, i.e., you don’t just focus on the customer or just the staff? You try and see where everyone is at and how you can…basically where there are opportunities to effect that change?

Andy: Yeah, that’s right. So if you imagine a problem like, you know, your engagement on your basket analysis, you know, engagement on your e-commerce site, for example, is down and you want to improve that. That’s a challenge, right? That’s a corporate challenge. It’s not usually one single thing that fixes that. Because, if you imagine that, you know, it might be…well, firstly, it touches on communications, how are you talking about the product? How are you engaging the consumer? What communications are you using as a narrative? How are you communicating the objectives of the business case staff internally for that basket to be increased? Also, how does it impact finance? What’s the benefit of you increasing the basket value? But also, what’s the investment the company’s willing to put in? If you look at the customer, obviously there’s a standard UX procedure in terms of identifying that and working through funnel analysis. You look at the issue, taking best practice from the industry, looking at market trends, what’s emerging? Looking at device, the product itself, you know, what is the product? Are you using the correct technology? Are you using the correct platforms, you know, the right channels, etc.? So this is how we would take a problem, you know, a quite pointed problem like, my e-commerce basket is losing engagement. And we would map it to those lenses, and we would look at, you know, users internally and externally to find out what their motivation is in order to improve that.

Timi: Okay. In terms of entire teams, shall we say, if we zoom out a bit, I think one problem that I’ve seen happen repeatedly is that companies will go, “Oh, in this day and age you need to be agile. You need to be human centered.” So, you know, they build UX teams and they hire all the “right people.” And they go, “Okay, now we will be all those things,” Except it doesn’t quite work that way, because everyone else in the company isn’t necessarily pulling in the same direction. So then there’s a challenge that UX teams or the teams that are supposed to be human centered, they face…How do we put it? They face friction and push back and there’s a clash between the user objectives and the business objectives. So would you say that the six lenses and this business design methodology is something that can help organizations like that to align their entire business towards the goal of becoming more agile and more human centered?

Andy: Yeah, absolutely, I mean, the core of why we do what we do. Let’s just go a little above that, so if we take a real helicopter view. You know, it’s our fundamental belief that the Fortune 500 companies in the last 50 years are fundamentally different to the Fortune 500 companies of the next 10 years. You know, pace of change, technology, enablement, working practices, product development, etc., are just, you know, moving us, right? And that’s what agility solves. You know, you need to have that agility. But you also need to have it at scale. And actually, you know, you can sense a company that understands, you know, design thinking as a methodology by those companies that can adopt agility at a scale. And they create things like innovation culture, not just a prescribed mandate. You know prescribing these things as a mandate often doesn’t work. You have to culturally embed them. And actually, I believe that, you know, part of our journey and our operation going forwards is to help companies create that cultural transformation in order to achieve that agility scale. Does that make sense?

Timi: Yeah, absolutely. So I suppose, to me it sounds like you can’t just tell people to do something. You have to create the conditions that encourage and allow them to do it.

Andy: Yeah, exactly. The ambient elements of this process are underestimated.

Timi: Okay. And do you find, are there any…How can I put it? Because you have different sort of clients right now, I know you’ve worked with Adobe and some other businesses. Do you find there are certain types of businesses that are drawn to this idea of business design and that are suited to it? Or is it literally anyone?

Andy: I think it’s a bit like someone that hadn’t thought about customer experience five years ago. You know, obviously if you explain customer experience or CX as a concept, everyone goes, “Duh.” You know, obviously, why wouldn’t we be doing that? In all honesty, I think, you know, business design as a concept applies to any business. Obviously, it works better for those that are ready to adopt it and understand it, but that’s true of any change in, you know, corporate approach. But yeah, I think it works for businesses of all scales that we’ve seen, and we really do work with businesses of all scales.

Timi: Okay. And in your experience, just because I’m thinking maybe there are some people who are listening that are thinking, “Oh, that kind of applies to me.” When you go in and you do audit these businesses and you put them through the six lenses and you try and get a comprehensive view of everything everywhere, do you see any trends in terms of the reasons why they’re unable to effect the organizational change that they want to?

Andy: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the classic one is business silos, right? So, you know, having a siloed approach within business, or little fiefdoms, you know, it really does create issues within businesses. And, you know, this doesn’t particularly solve the silo itself, but it does give everybody an understood map to solving a particular pointed problem across multiple silos. Everyone understands their place in the world and they can work together there. I think, you know, waterfall management mentality, you know, enacting two-year rigid plans, for me, is idiotic. I just don’t see why you would do things like that. Like it just seems totally idiotic. So, you know, why wouldn’t you create a framework, effectively a set of tools that’s adaptable to the market context or adaptable to the business…I just wrote a blog piece that had the handy handle of you know, according to Mike Tyson, everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth…

Timi: I’ve read that.

Andy: …in relation to Brexit. You know, that’s the kind of market context on all business, right? So, you know, everybody’s two-year waterfall plan will have gone out the window. That’s not to say that you shouldn’t have direction. We’re big believers in having direction in business and setting things off on a course in order to achieve a goal. You can’t assume the map will stay the same throughout that journey. You know, there’s a couple of other great things that affect that or sort of compound the issue within businesses that we see. So legacy technology is one. You know, not having the ability to create agile platforms. And, you know, obviously, having a narrow view, not being willing to look at something else. You know, “If you haven’t got an MBA then, you know, you don’t qualify,” that kind of thing. And actually, you know, we don’t believe that’s true either. Yeah, I think those are the main barriers.

Timi: That makes sense. I mean, I, myself, have worked in organizations where some of those things have been true, particularly silos and legacy technology. And essentially, if I break it down, the reasons why companies haven’t tackled those two things, in my experience, is that, first of all, they don’t even know how to define the problem. They know the manifestation of it, but they don’t know where to begin to tackle it. That makes them scared, you know? They think it will be too painful to try and deal with it, so it’s just kind of swept under the rug. And, for me, that was what clicked for me, when you first of all told me about business design, and I was like, “Oh, this actually puts some shape around it.” And it makes it simple for you to actually go about dealing with these problems. As you said, it may not necessarily solve silos, but it creates a framework that allows you to move beyond them.

Andy: Yeah, absolutely. And because we break down things into small chunks. You know, we talked about MVIs, minimum viable initiatives, these go to addressing themes within a problem. So a problem statement in a big business or a small business might be…

Timi: Actually, sorry, could you tell us about the MVIs? Could you tell us what they mean and how you come by them?

Andy: Yeah, sure. So an MVI, minimum viable initiative in our terminology, is a small program of work designed to have its own KPIs and its own accountability within multiple teams. But an MVI basically goes to addressing a theme. So a theme might be “Business development is not good enough in my business. We’re not getting enough new business.” But obviously, solving business development isn’t just a one…It’s never solved by a single item. So we create multiple MVIs that goes towards making that theme. And those MVIs are then split down into our…actually, not the six lenses, because you can’t do anything about the market, but the things you can control, you know, finance, customer, communication, product, etc. We split the MVIs down into those, and we literally map them. So you then have basically a map split across five lenses of multiple MVIs that all have a specification and accountability in KPIs. And you know that if you do those, you’re effecting the theme that you’re trying to address. In a wider growth strategy piece, a business might have four or five themes, or, you know, a theme might be answering something quite pointed within a business, a very specific challenge. “We’re not engaging with this customer type,” for example, might be a very specific challenge. And we still do the same process and have the same breakdown. So, challenge, themes, multiple MVIs across multiple lenses affecting multiple parts of the business, as a map.

Timi: So you get to effect or move towards the overall goal basically, without having to adopt some kind of, I guess, waterfall approach, as you said. You can still be agile while effecting a bigger goal

Andy: Yeah, you can pick and choose which MVIs you want to do. Some are contingent, some are not. And, obviously, being able to see it visually really helps with that. So you can completely understand how you can shift your business from where it is now to where you want it to be.

Timi: Okay, cool. I mean, to me, anyway, that sounds like something a lot of businesses could do with.

Andy: Well, it’s proving quite tireless, and that’s good

Timi: One thing I wanted to ask you about, because you have a long design background, don’t you? Like, across all…To me it sounds like a very varied background. Could you tell us a bit about, you know, that background, some of the roles and things you’ve done in the past?

Andy: Yeah, I’ve had quite a weird career. Apart from a bit of a stint as a business development director with a digital agency that I went on to then be the MD of, I’ve only ever been a managing director of a business unit or a business itself. And for the last 12 years I’ve run other people’s companies. But my design background really covers a lot of areas. I started out in the early days of Macromedia. You know, we were selling CDs on the front of magazines and, you know, as we were selling CDs, everyone said, “Oh, can you…We need a proper website. I don’t know what it’s for, but I need a website.” So we very quickly started doing those. But we did some really interesting things, you know. We did the first online trading site in the UK for Société Générale. I’ve been through and did lots of things. I did Man United site at one point. Picardi, Sony, lots of stuff for electronic carts, and you know, leading designers and developers and strategists and marketing guys. We did all sorts over the last 18 years or so. And, you know, it gives you a comprehensive view of some of the common challenges. And it also…One of the big drivers, again, you know, in starting this business with Richard, who started the business with me, is that we identified that as you’re running agencies you often don’t get a very well thought through brief from a customer. And actually, if we could go further up the stack, then we could help the customer create a more robust reason and robust brief for agencies if we did nothing else than we would have done in some way. And that was actually one of the drivers for starting Rokker.

Timi: So that actually Rokker came out of a passion for you then, in a way? Through basically your experiences over the years.

Andy: Yeah, a passion for both not being presented with really, really hard briefs that were almost unachievable, but also a passion for really, really thinking the design in all its formats shifts the dialogue of businesses. You know, we’re massive believers in stylistic quality, the front end quality of design, but also the back end quality of design, the way that it affects the corporate structure. The way it affects communication. The way it affects, you know, process. You know, all of those things the people wouldn’t usually associate with it.

Timi: Yeah. So, in summary, is it fair to say that essentially, with business design you use design thinking to help companies define their problems better, solve them in a more agile, more manageable way, and measure and understand the impact of their work in a clearer, more human-centered sense?

Andy: It’s a very, very accurate description. You can write that down and put it on our website.

Timi: Thank you, you’re too kind.

Andy: That’s a very good summary, yeah.

Timi: Okay. So I think that brings me to the end of all my questions. Thank you very much, Andy, for being here with us. I know you’re very busy. Even when we were trying to set this up, you were up and down the country and all over the place. So I really appreciate you taking the time and helping, you know, inform our audience about, to me, this innovative idea that I can only see coming more popular in the business world as we go along. So thank you very much, Andy.

Andy: Thank you. Absolutely, my pleasure, thank you very much.

Business design cures corporate self-sabotage using design methodology

Andy Rogers built up a righteous amount of frustration during more than two decades in the design and digital worlds. He feels your pain and that’s why he founded Rokker, just over a year ago.

In Andy’s words, “Business design is the application of design thinking to solve corporate challenges.”

In essence, helping businesses operate in a more aligned, profitable and painless way by shaping their structure using core design principles:

  • Inherent agility – ability to keep up with constant changes and improvements
  • Human-centeredness – ability to incorporate and meet the needs of people
  • Goal-orientated – ability to achieve a desired outcome

Rokker designs businesses using much the same thought processes a UX professional adopts in trying to create a user-friendly app. The science-cum-art of designing things that simply… work.

“Business design is the application of design thinking to solve corporate challenges.”

Think of it as management consulting with a heart of good design.

Any company whose structure and operations are moulded by business design is primed for being user-centred. The drive to provide a good UX will be hardwired into its DNA.

Why does business design matter? Does it even work?

You bet it does. Just ask anyone from Adobe to Rokker’s other (smaller) clients.

Huw Thomas

In fact, the only reason you may not have heard of business design is because it’s so new.

Andy compares it to customer experience.

“I think it’s a bit like someone that hadn’t thought about customer experience five years ago. You know, if you explain customer experience or CX as a concept, everyone goes, ‘Duh… obviously. Why wouldn’t we be doing that?’”

Part of the challenge for businesses today is they don’t even understand the disease they’re trying to cure – all they know are its symptoms.

I hate to go anywhere near this cliché but… the business world is changing quickly and relentlessly!

Before businesses could come to terms with the Internet, digital devices came along. Then user experience, customer experience, software as a service… and so on. The rate of development is literally unprecedented.  

Smart Home Whitepaper

UX Crunch and The Bio Agency held an event, during which they discussed this idea of “digital transfiguration” (as it was called).

That’s why business design needs to be agile.

Business design is agile

Andy explains:

“I think waterfall management mentality – enacting two-year rigid plans – is idiotic. Why wouldn’t you create a framework, effectively a set of tools, that’s adaptable to the market context or adaptable to the business?”

Rokker helps businesses answer questions like, “How can we reconnect with key customer segments, after fundamentally changing our sales model?

Or indeed“How can we establish a company-wide, user-centred culture and ensure all our products and services are user-friendly?”

But as far as enacting a solution goes, Andy believes “…prescribing these things as a mandate often doesn’t work. You have to culturally embed them.”

Actual vs Normal

You can’t just instruct your company to become something – you have to create the conditions that encourage and allow it to do so.

That’s the exact opposite of what most companies do – a truth that was (hopefully) captured in this article’s opening salvo.

And that’s why business design is human-centred. If you’re going to embed cultural change, you have to understand human behaviour.

Business design is human-centred

Andy believes companies need to understand the humans that make up their organisations – not just customers, but all the humans:

“Companies have a lot of humans in them and they deal with a lot of humans – customers, shareholders, journalists, management or employees. It seemed like a very sensible way for us to view the world.”

Even if you want to become more “user-centred” for example, you can’t truly achieve that simply by understanding your users – your employees have to act on that understanding.

And how can you make sure your employees seek out and act on user research? By understanding the employees themselves.

Understand Employees

Andy says:

“When we take on a challenge, we do a lot of primary research. We do a lot of desk-based research. We do workshopping. (We look) at what the businesses are actually doing rather than what they’re saying they’re doing… We’re trying to get a lot of data about consumers or staff or you know… the people we’re interacting with.”

Business design involves research on all the people who’re directly attached to a company, so that a business that drives them towards the same, clear goal can be designed.

Business design is goal-orientated

Here’s a summary of Andy’s take on being goal-orientated:

“I just wrote a blog piece (quoting Mike Tyson), ‘Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth’… in relation to Brexit. Everybody’s two-year waterfall plan will have gone out the window. That’s not to say that you shouldn’t have direction… (But) you can’t assume the map will stay the same throughout that journey. “

There’s no point having a “plan” that you have no clear and realistic means of achieving – no matter how admirable the vision. Nor is there a point in having a plan whose effectiveness and validity you can’t regularly assess and improve.

That’s why business design breaks challenges down using the six lenses, and makes goals achievable using minimum viable initiatives.

Rokker Business Design Lenses

How business design works the six lenses” and minimum viable initiatives (MVIs)

Business design tackles organisational challenges by assessing them through six all-encompassing lenses:

  • Customer
  • Communication
  • Market
  • Product
  • Organization
  • Finance

In Andy’s words, “It gives us a holistic view of a challenge… instead of being siloed into a department.”

It means businesses don’t make the simplistic assumption that they can enjoy organisation-wide benefits by implementing isolated changes.

Business design identifies clear and manageable changes, across these lenses, that businesses can make to start moving towards their goals – minimum viable initiatives.

“So an MVI, minimum viable initiative in our terminology, is a small program of work designed to have its own KPIs and its own accountability, within multiple teams. But an MVI basically goes to addressing a theme. So a theme might be ‘We’re not getting enough new business.’ But obviously, solving business development isn’t down to just one thing. So we create multiple MVIs that go towards achieving that theme… And you know that if you do those, you’re affecting the theme that you’re trying to address.”

MVIs mean that rather than having a “rigid 2-year plan”, you have more easily achievable short-term actions which (if followed) will move you steadily towards your long-term goal. Just like smaller, design iterations you might find in UX.

You can be strategic, yet agile – adapt to change without compromising your sense of direction.

Why businesses fail at being agile, human-centred and goal-orientated

In Andy’s experience, there are common issues that prevent businesses from becoming, for example, user-centred – even after they’ve made isolated changes, like hiring a team.

These include:

  • Silos – teams operating in isolation from one another
  • Legacy technology – long-standing systems that have become ineffective, yet so entrenched that they cannot be easily removed

Silos makes inter-departmental collaboration painful and a united drive towards a common goal, next to impossible.

DNA Blocked

Legacy technology imposes its own limitations on the achievements of a company’s employees. Businesses hire people for their skills, then put them in an environment that undermines their ability to use those skills.

Andy explains that even if business design doesn’t obliterate these kinds of systemic issues, it provides a framework that allows businesses to move beyond them and achieve their goals.

With Andy’s blessing, I summarised business design as follows:

“The use of design thinking to better define corporate problems, solve them in a more agile and manageable way, and understand the impact of changes in a clearer, more human-centered sense.”

Sounds like a minimum requirement for any business that wants to be truly user-centred to me.

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Timi is a London-based copywriter and full-time marketing sceptic – there are now more unvalidated opinions out there than ever.

He became a UX testing enthusiast after seeing its power while working at TUI – the world’s largest travel, leisure and tourism company. He then joined WhatUsersDo to sharpen his UX knowledge and work side-by-side with the field’s best and brightest.

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